Feb
11
It finally had to happen I guess. I’ve just felt to often that the values I embraced for living the faith and I thought I saw in the emergent conversation have not materialized in reality. So I finally have to admit (not that anyone cares) I’m post emergent. Why? Here are five reasons.
- The conversation still looks to much like the old conversation, white, male and academic. The dominant culture still dominates.
- The values behind the conversation aren’t readily expressed in actions. No generous orthopraxis to go with the generous orthodoxy. (see my previous post)
- The lexicon of the white European theological framework which still dominates. There is very little inclusion of black theologians and the theological framework of people of color. People of color seem to be included in the conversation only if they are willing to use this language and framework. It seems we all need to read NT Wright in order to have any credibility.
- Talk, talk and more talk. My experience is we love to talk about this stuff but other than retro worship stuff we don’t get around to acting on it. Even so talk about diversity has never come to the fore. I want to be the church and act like the church not just talk like the church.
- Ultimately its about relationships and I have made some good ones which go beyond the whole emergent (non movement) thing. So I’ll go about the spiritual practice of reconciliation through relationships with my brothers and sisters and leave emergent tag to others.
Tags: christian, church, emergent, praxis, reconciliation
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Cheryl,
Please know that I understand what you are saying, but just don’t believe it is completely fair. I do not think Andre (or anyone) should be held back, but neither do I think that moving forward requires no longer identifying with the those who have not moved so far. To suggest that the emerging conversation is becoming (or is already) oppressive is simply unfair and untrue.
It wasn’t just that Andre has named the reality- he has, as has many others (including white males) and they are right. What we need is for people to model the change from within. That is why my plea to him is to stay within the "emergent" identification (whatever that means). We need him.
I would also like to point out that there are thousands of white males who are not being "held back" or are not listening. It seems that, in order to inspire or provoke action to change, we need to paint a bleaker picture than is accurate or fair. This does the Church a disservice. The Church has come massive distance in the last century, even more so in the last few decades. In 2000 years of Church history, Christianity (white males included) have spiked the chart of change. Let’s not forget that.
In the end, I am not angry or upset by Andre’s choice to identify as "post-emergent", as I am not sure how important such identifications ultimately are. However, implicationally, I am concerned by the choice to use such identifications to define oneself (or others) as being of a certain quality (and let’s not ignore that this is happening).
Peace,
Jamie
Hi Andre- Yep you touched a nerve, but not mine! I met you at EWM when Isaac spoke about his ministry. I guess I felt the same way which is why I haven’t bothered to come to more EWM meetings. It was discouraging to me that the only other women in there was your intern and me with my big mouth. I personally don’t care about identifying myself with anything anymore- emergent or pomo. Do I have permission to follow Jesus and be about my Father’s business? Yep, where it gets sticky is that I want to be in a community that blends believers and non-believers. I guess I’m naive and impatient. Anyway, thanks for your post and the responses et cetera. Janet
Jamie -
i didn’t mean for it to sound that the emerging church was oppressive, rather that being asked to walk the line of patience, solidarity and patience becomes oppressive.
it was a more general historical comment about the way people in "minority" groups have been required to participate in culture and society in order for ‘progress’ – i’m sorry i wrote it in a way that could be understood differently. I don’t mean to question your integrity, i’m trying to understand Andre’s frustration.
which i’ve done by talking all over it. i talk way too much. this is not my conversation to be part of. andre, i’m sorry i have been one who hasn’t listened well (probably even to this post).
peace
Cheryl,
Thanks for the clarity. The irony is that I share Andre’s frustration (as much as a white male can -wink). I live & minister out of an inner city community that the church has literally abandon save a brave, committed and over taxed few. As frustrated as I am, I also take encouragement from the fact that 15 years ago I was reprimanded for raising questions that are now common in the Evan church, in part due to the the emergent conversation. We have come a long way.
Peace,
Jamie
Cheryl:
Thanks for the comment. It is your conversation! That is the point I’m trying to make unless the conversation has many voices it will not be rich and the outcome what ever it is will suffer so I hope you continue to comment whether you are or not.
Jamie: let me say for clarification. I beleive the emergent conversation has awakened some good things but as Randall Jelks points out unless the convesation is able to speak to the larger issues at hand it may become as irrelevant as others have been to the reality of all but the folks of color who are patiently waiting in the conversation. I belief you and others in emergent are genuininely concerned and frustrated as I am but you have to know that to hear "be patient" when I’m not asking for the world but that the theological voice of others from outside the dominant culture be added to the conversation begins to feel very maniputative and self serving. I do not believe that is intentional but that is what it feels like. I hope emergent folks can come to grips with that and receive it not as a slap at emergent but as a expression of one person’s (among others) experience.
Andre,
I completely hear you. However, first, I do not think you have painted an accurate picture of the level of inclusion. I believe there is a serious increase in this area, if looked at in the big picture. No, it has not gone far enough, nor perhaps fast enough. However, a call for patience is not a call to sit and wait. Stir things up! Call us out! Fight tooth and nail! But know that you will have far more authority to do so if you do so without choosing to unidentify with the people you most want to inspire.
Peace,
Jamie
Jamie, in response to your call to Andre to fight tooth & nail… I am sorry if I sound strong or if I insult- I speak only for myself and not Andre, but I would say that sometimes it gets old having to be the one "fighting for" and wasting precious resources on stiff necked white people. I guess I feel like Jonah. Why waste my time in Ninevah? I know that Jonah eventually moves his butt and does what God requests but, jeesh! That’s how I feel sometimes as a Latina. My whole life I have been asked to be the "bridge" to build understanding between white folks and hispanics. I am useful because of what you can get out me for yourselves. I am useful because I know English & Spanish. I am useful because I am an organized women. I am useful because I have empathy skills. I am useful because I can stay focused and on task. I am useful because I am not afraid to meet people. I am useful for what you can get from me, but what about what God wants? What if God wants reconciliation in a different way? By de-emphasising the how I am marketable to your campaign for emergent and emphasizing how I love Jesus and am doing my part in an organic-not commited to your labels- way? Why do I have to join the fraternity to be qualified to preach or teach or be in leadership? Why do I have to drink the emergent kool aid to have the ability to discern? The answer: I don’t. Also I am tired of waiting for the powers that be to decide when I get to participate. I am tired of not seeing strong intelligent ethnic or not – women being excluded from the meat & potatoes table. I am tired of being handed hors d’oevres and told that I can be sustained with a taste or a nibble. I am tired of being told to wait. I am tired of being treating like I’m a bad child for wanting more and asking questions. I’m starting to believe that the church today is a fraud. I’m tired.
Rant over. I am sorry if my comment is not quite related to the topic? I felt that it was. I am often wrong. I am often angry.
Janet,
I want you to know that I hear your frustration, and as much as I am able to, I share your frustration. I assumed your "rant" (your word, not mine) was directed at the larger church culture, but your statement in the middle "By de-emphasising the how I am marketable to your campaign for emergent and emphasizing how I love Jesus and am doing my part in an organic-not commited to your labels- way?" made me pause. Surely your comment cannot fairly be leveled at the emerging church movement at large? I also struggled with your use of the word "you", as the comment was addressed to me.
If you do believe your comment is true of the emerging church movement (or me), I would ask that you qualify it, as it is a very serious accusation. Thanks for your vulnerability.
Peace,
Jamie
Jamie:Janet appropriately expresses my frustrations. I shouldn’t have to keep saying this but I appreciate the emergent conversation for raising up some important questions and I know it serves an important role for many people who are detoxing from the destructive patterns the modern evangelical church. i know it has been a point of transformation for many others enabling them to look at faith from a new perspective. But I have come to believe that I cannot be fully me within that conversation.
I have tried to stir things as you suggest for some time now. been in a cohort and all. But the dust settles and the conversation drifts back to the default. Maybe I don’t have the patience of some of the people of color in the conversation. Maybe I’m not wise enough to sit back, lower my expectations and wait to eventually be heard, Maybe I have the spiritual gift of irritation.
Whatever it s I just don’t have energy any more for challenging those in the conversation to live out something that it supposed to a part of our shared values. That’s not my idea of how I want to inspire. The experiences I have had with the emergent conversation so far have not validated a continued push in that direction.
Giving credit where credit is due , some members of the local cohort that I participate in has made a real effort to look a this with me and for this I am grateful. I have heard responses to my concerns from Brian McLaren but not a whole lot beyond that. I should probably be satisfied with that.
In the final analysis I just feel it was something that needed to be said and I needed to say it. I’m not looking to start another movement or hijack the current conversation but I need to express my commitment to the emerging church values in a that was fully me by moving beyond my perceptions of the limitations of the current emergent conversation.
Thanks again for your thoughtful comments
Andre,
Thanks for your honesty. However, in the end, I feel you are being premature and unfair with some of your evaluation. Far be it from me to try and talk you out of something you have such conviction for. Thankfully, emergent or no, we are both part of one Body, in which I am proud to call you brother.
Peace,
Jamie
jamie,
i really like what you have to say in the emergent conversation. i think you’re compassionate and committed and thoughtful (and i really hate that there’s going to be a "but" at the end of this)… but what would make it feel like emergent respected the views of Andre, and others who have commented, would be if people said "i’m so sorry… i didn’t realise it was like that for you… what do you think i can do differently… go well, go with our blessing, i can’t wait to hear what it’s like for you…"
in a christian community the onus is always, first and foremost, on those in the dominant paradigm to listen for the voice (even if it’s a whisper) of those who aren’t, and to create community around them. In many ways, we do that out of purely selfish reasons – historically, God seems to speak, almost without exception, through the voices of those who society and culture would keep silent. Listen to those voices, and we just might have the chance to hear God.
to me, it would make all the difference in the world to hear people in emergent say "i’ll do (this) differently, because i’ve been challenged by what Andre has to say)."
Jamie- I think I am not accusing you personally. Although you are a representative of the emergent movement, you are considered one of the big guys or at least an apologist for the emergent movement. Whether that is a reality or not, I cannot truly say because my entire experience of you has been through your blog-site and the testimony of certain people that I respect who call you friend. I like what you have to say. I like that you are so optomistic about this thing and I know I am not being fair. Life is not fair. I can’t qualify my feelings toward Church in America, or the Emergent movement with fairness. I am not picking on you, per se, but I reacted to your comments to Andre about fighting tooth & nail ( see comment #43). I think Ellie really said it best. AND she did it in a way that wasn’t near as provocative as my reflexive anger.
Amen to what Ellie just said.
I have hoped that emergent would deal with issues of power, influence, and leadership differently than we have seen in modern evangelical circles.
Sometimes I wonder. Conversations like this are often an opportunity for those with dominance to humble themselves and serve. Does that happen?
wow. this thread has certainly taken off since i last checked in on it. the thing is, while it sounds like andre is being premature in some of his criticisms, the fact of the matter is that he is still a part of the conversation. let’s face it, this post struck a chord and i’m betting that a lot of the emergent "big wigs" (such as can be found in a conversation) have taken note of it. and have probably noted for themselves.
i think what you are seeing is the natural evolution of things. once the intellectuals and philosophers have wrung out their ideas, they are eventually disseminated on down. right now, the ideas are filtering to the story-tellers (writers, pastors) and the worker bees.
there’s the rub.
the worker bees, once an idea has been embraced, need to go do. to apply the ideas to where they are. and despite our claims to postmodernism, we are still quite modern in our "end result" mindset. we need to see pay off, action, something which translates into measureable results.
(and i’ve recently discovered james cone and have been reading on liberation theology.)
Ellie,
Excellent point. I wrongly assumed that this would be done with those Andre was in personal relationship with, but this was a false assumption. Thank you for the reminder.
Janet,
Thanks for the very kind words. I think what is interesting for me is that I am not as much part of the emergent community in the US (though I consider many in it close friends), but more rooted in the Canadian experience. Perhaps that is why I am more optomistic, as I am seeing a different dynamic than in the US. I apologize for no recognizing that dynamic earlier.
Maurice,
Well said.
Peace,
Jamie
Jamie: I think you are on to something with your observation about approaching emergent from a Canadian perspective. The global conversation seems broader than in the US. I see that every time I read Kester Brewin’s blog and in his book. I too feel you are my brother and I have appreciated your thoughts and want very much to keep talking.
Jim & Rob: Thanks for stopping by and sharing your feedback it is an encouragement.
Cheryl, Grace, Janet, Ellie: I feel such a deep solidarity with you and your yearnings to find space in the conversation I wish we were having this one face to face. Thank you so much for sharing from your hearts it has blessed me.
Andre,
I am beginning a series of posts responding to your prophetic call.
ant
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Maurice,
I had hoped to get to the Midwest Emergent conference but ministry got in the way. So I’m glad to hear you comments